FULL TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH VEN. TENZIN PALMO BY DI COUSENS

(short form printed in Gentle Voice - see Siddhartha's Intent and also Ven. Tenzin Palmo's site - www.tenzinpalmo.com)

Photo by Diana Cousens

CONDUCTED AT THE SAKYADHITA INTERNATIONAL BUDDHIST WOMEN’S CONFERENCE, SEOUL, KOREA, JULY 2004.

Q. Ven. Tenzin Palmo, what is the progress of your nunnery? A couple of years ago you decided to establish it, you toured the world and raised some money for it and so on, how has it progressed?
A. It’s going along fine. We have 21 nuns – girls from Tibet and various Himalayan regions like Ladakh and Spiti and so forth. We have purchased land, a very beautiful piece of land overlooking the Himalayan mountains - or the Himalayan mountains are overlooking us - and we are building. We have a couple of buildings already up and we are now working on the nun’s residences, and then the class rooms, and a retreat centre there for the nuns.

Q. So what’s the program there at the moment, in terms of teaching and practice, etc.
A. We have a very nice Khenpo from the Dzongsar Institute, Khenpo Tsering, so the nuns are well and they are studying philosophy. This year they are doing the Madhyamikavatara by Chandrakirti and next year they will be doing logic and debating. They love studying. Our problem is to stop them studying too much! Recently when they had exams they requested that lights out should be put forward from ten o’clock to eleven o’clock at night, so they could study an hour extra. They are very keen.

Q. That’s great. Where did they come from? How did you select the 21 girls?
A. When we first get them our nuns are between the ages of 15 and 25. The first batch were sent by Amchi Tenzin Palmo of Ladakh. I had met her in Cambodia and then she phoned up one day and said, ‘Well, how is your nunnery coming along? Do you want some nuns?’, and I thought, ‘Stop thinking about it – just do it’, so I said, ‘Yes, we want some nuns’. She said, ‘How many shall I send you – 30 – 40?’ And I said, ‘Well, how about three or four to start with?’. So we got seven: our first group of nuns were seven Ladakhi schoolgirls. Then another two nuns from Ladakh turned up, so that’s nine. Now we have some young women from Tibet, Spiti and Kinnaur. Some were already nuns, some were not. We interviewed them at the beginning, asking them why they want to become nuns, or why they became nuns, how long they have wanted to be nuns, what do they think being a nun is all about, and why do they want to join our nunnery. And so forth. And then of
course their educational qualifications and the rest.

Q. What is the long term goal of the education program?
A. What we are doing is that the first six years, we are just concentrating on giving the nuns a general overlook and introduction into what is Buddhism. The problem is that many of the nuns who arrive don’t know Tibetan, and –

Q. Can’t read?
A. Can’t read and don’t know the language. For instance they’re from Kinnaur. They might have gone to school and they know some Hindi, English, and Kinnauri of course, but they don’t know Tibetan. Girls from Spiti and Ladakh know Tibetan but it’s Western Tibetan – it’s not the Khampa dialect which we use in our Institute. So the first year they have to concentrate on learning Tibetan – how to understand it, how to read it, how to write it. The Tibetans who come, they know Tibetan, but they don’t know how to read and write, and so the first year for them also is mainly spent in learning how to read the language and not just understand it orally. Then after that, they study texts like Words of My Perfect Teacher and Gampopa’s Jewel Ornament and the Jewel Garland, these general overview of practices. Then gradually they get into more philosophy until this year they are doing Madhyamika and so forth.

In addition every year they do two months' practice. During those two months they don’t speak. If you can imagine a group of teenagers and girls in their early 20s not saying a word - except their chanting – for two months?! And this is their choice. Originally I asked them to do two or three weeks of keeping silence and then they could decide if they wanted to remain silent or to have minimal speaking. And after the time, they said they would prefer to keep silence. So they are very dedicated to the practice during that time. For the first two retreats they do their ngöndro and then Vajrayogini practice, and so forth. So every year they have the two months of doing strict practice.

After the six years then we will ask them whether they wish to continue with their studies or to do further retreat or to serve in the nunnery. We hope that some of them will be interested to serve the nunnery in an organisational capacity. Those who wish to continue with their studies will carry on studying with the Khenpo, and those who want to do retreat will enter into a strict retreat of one year or three years or whatever our meditation teacher recommends.

Q. In terms of the building program, what are the next buildings that you need to build?
A. When the nuns' residences are completed, which should be in a few months’ time, then we need to build their classrooms and a retreat centre. Finally we need to construct the temple. I don’t have funds yet for the temple, so I have to go out and scrounge.

Q. Another world tour. Many Western women have been very inspired by your example, what do you say to them when they say, ‘Oh, I want to come and see you in India and practice Dharma with you somewhere near your nunnery’, or whatever.
A. Of course, everybody is very welcome to come to India. After all, in our area we are two hours from Dharamsala where His Holiness the Dalai Lama is and many other great lamas, and an hour away from His Holiness the Gyalwa Karmapa. Then down the road is Tai Situpa and so forth. In Tashi Jong we also have wonderful yogis – togdens – and there is a wealth of Rinpoches and
teachers. I myself do not teach.

Q. So therefore if Western women, for example, or Westerners in general came and knocked on your door you would direct them to all the other lamas in the locality?
A. Exactly.

Q. I understand that one of the aims of your nunnery is to reinstitute the tradition of togdenmas – yoginis. How is that going to come about?
A. Well, we know that some of the nuns are already very interested and desirous of doing longer retreats. And we hope that some of those who do these retreats will show the capacity and the interest to be trained for longer practice. For example, we have at the moment in Tashi Jong about four of the older togdens – the older yogis of our monastery. Then there are about 10 to 12 newer ones who are in retreat, studying and practising to become yogis, to become togden. Most of these I haven’t seen for 10 or more years because they are in retreat. They get a very thorough training. I always compare it to cooking a cake – you put it in the oven and you don’t take it out until it’s really well cooked. So of these new ones, some of them are really very capable and good, as with the older togdens, so in the future we hope that they will be able to teach our nuns. The object of educating our nuns and producing togdenmas is so that in the future there will be female teachers. At this point almost all our teachers are male, which is fair enough, but we hope that in the future nuns will be able to teach.

Q. What are your impressions of the Sakyadhita Conference that we are both attending here in Korea?
A. I think everybody here is just overwhelmed by the facilities and the hospitality and generosity of the Korean nuns and their organisational powers. It has been an incredible experience to see the powerful force of the bhikshunis (fully ordained nuns) here in Korea, and their capacity in all spheres. I mean, they are very confident women. Of course they are well educated, and because they are bhikshunis, therefore they have high social standing. They are also in a very good relationship with the monks. They are really brothers and sisters. It’s not one up there and the other grovelling on the ground, they both have a parity. Both monks and nuns have equal opportunities and therefore it’s like a big dharma family, rather than masters and servants.

Q. I found it exciting as well, just the presence of people from so many different countries, ordained persons from so many countries.
A. I feel the same. I think it is really a great eye opener for other nuns, not only from the Tibetan tradition, but also from even less privileged positions like in Thailand and Cambodia, etc., to see that it is possible for actual Asian nuns – Buddhist nuns – to have this opportunity and this confidence, to be a bhikshuni, and to be educated and to be able to benefit many outside. Because especially in Thailand, nuns are so looked down on. Honestly, if you are a nun it’s considered to be because you’ve failed. It couldn’t be just because you have faith in the Dharma. So with that kind of projection, what can they hope for? And then they come here and they see these wonderful young and older nuns radiating confidence, full of devotion to the Dharma and also respect and joy in their position. I think this really expands horizons of other nuns as to what it is possible for a woman – an Asian woman – to achieve.

Q. I feel also that so often Buddhist communities tend to be inward looking and self absorbed – seeking just to sort out their own things, whereas here we are aware of being a part of the global community.
A. Very much. And everybody is kind and happy and I think they are all rejoicing in each other’s contributions.

Q. Yes.
A. And it’s lovely to have women talking about women’s issues. It always is a joy at Sakyadhita that this conference is totally focused on Buddhist women’s issues and problems and successes. Here women have a voice – they have the only voice. And this is such an incredible change from most conferences, including Buddhist conferences – at least in Asia. I have been to Buddhist conferences where sometimes I was almost the only female voice. Maybe there were 100 other participants and there was simply no female energy there at all. It was all what the males were talking about. Their interests – their agendas – and the fact that the other half of the sangha are females was totally ignored.

Q. One of the things that is a big topic of discussion here is the bhikshuni ordination. We can see that Vietnamese, Korean and Chinese nuns have had the bhikshuni ordination without a break forever. What’s the progress on a Tibetan bhikshuni ordination?
A. Basically on one level none whatsoever, because this is an agenda which will be endlessly delayed by discussion and research. I mean, I took bhikshuni ordination 30 years ago – and they are still discussing the issue of female ordination. We are hoping – I cannot say planning – but we are hoping to introduce the ordination for our nuns in about two or three years time. Previously I had first thought of the Chinese lineage but that is not successful with Tibetans because they are naturally ambiguous about the Chinese. They don’t want their lineage. Then I considered the Koreans – because there are many Koreans studying also in Tashi Jong, and the Tibetans are quite happy about the Koreans. But still there is a lineage problem, it’s the same lineage as the Chinese. So finally I was advised by a Nyingma Khenpo, to forget all about going outside our own lineage, just give the ordination within the Tibetan lineage. It is perfectly valid that the Tibetan monks alone can give the ordination. They already give the novice ordination to nuns, the getsulma ordination, which according to the Vinaya, can only be given by a bhikshuni or gelongma. So they are already doing something which is against the Vinaya. But according to the Vinaya, although there is some slight fault, it is a perfectly valid ordination, the nuns really are novices and that’s why the Tibetan monks give it. So if they can do that they can also give the bhikshuni ordination. Again, a slight fault for the ordaining monks, but perfectly legal. According to the Vinaya it’s perfectly valid to do that. If we do that then there is no argument about lineage. They are all within the same lineage and in 12 years time those ordained nuns can be the preceptors for the dual ordination. We are all within the same lineage, there is no problem. So this seems to be the way to go. I think anybody, if they look in the Vinaya, can see that there is this particular issue raised, and it is considered totally valid. And so why not do that?

Q. Yes.
A. So this is what at this time I am putting forward to respected lamas that I know and also to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. The respected lamas have shown some interest in doing it this way and say they will discuss it with His Holiness. So we must try to keep our fingers crossed. The thing is to go ahead and do it, because we could endlessly discuss the matter.

Q. Yes. I remember 16 years ago when the idea that Sri Lankan nuns would ever be bhikhunis was inconceivable – and now they are.
A. Oh –it’s so wonderful! Earlier this year I went to Sri Lanka and attended the cremation of a very high-ranking monk who had been very supportive to the nuns and had been their ordination master. In the procession through Colombo – following the coffin – there were at least 300 bhikhunis walking. It was such an incredibly moving experience to see them walking slowly through the streets and all the people coming out and being so amazed there was so many bhikkhunis in their yellow robe, looking so quiet and dignified and so proud - in the good sense of being proud of themselves and their achievements. Which, as you say, was inconceivable a few years ago.

Q. Absolutely. It amazes me how much the dharma has progressed in the last 20 years that I have had anything to do with it. What are your impressions of the changes over the last 40 years? Yesterday was the anniversary of meeting your guru wasn’t it?

A. Yes. Well, in some ways things haven’t changed so much. In other ways, especially for women, everything has changed .Some of it is not so good. For example, when the Tibetans first came out from Tibet, they were extremely poor, extremely traumatised. They were in a very alien environment in which they didn’t speak the language, they didn’t know how things operated, and so there was a rather egalitarian feeling there. Even high lamas were going by local bus, like everybody else. Everybody was in it together and the Tibetans in those days were also very generous, very open hearted, very lovely beings. Everyone was poor, having been uprooted, yet there was a great purity to it. Now 40 years later, having become basically professional refugees, the lamas have become very wealthy, monasteries have become very elaborate and opulent. So again, with so much fertilizer, the weeds have grown up. Not only has the blossoms of the Dharma risen but also all the weeds that we might have hoped would not arise again have come back up. So you get the tremendous hierarchical structures along with the corruption, the politics. Somehow in India it seems somehow inappropriate to create with such enormous Buddha images, and huge elaborate monasteries and personal residences for the lamas, dripping with gold, when the people all around are so poor. It’s just inappropriate.

Q. It’s a wealth display.
A. It’s a power display. So perhaps that’s the negative side. The positive side, especially in the last 10 years, is the incredible, stunning advancements of the nuns that were inconceivable a few years ago. That now the nuns are all being educated, that some of them are very close to taking the highest degrees - that is still controversial, of course, to become a Geshe and so forth, but it will happen. Eventually it’s got to happen. And in the meantime the nuns are studying, they are practising, they have so much more of a sense of their own dignity and worth and their ability to contribute. Not only to the Dharma but to society. It’s wonderful to see in such a short time how far nuns have advanced in this way.

Q. And also in terms of publications, you can find so much more Dharma available in bookshops ...
A. Yes, almost too much. You go into a Buddhist bookshop and it overwhelms you. But of course, there are some wonderful translations, so much better than just some years ago. The quality and accuracy of the translations and the mellifluous language. Also nowadays there is a general awareness of Tibetan Buddhism. I mean when I first started I couldn’t believe that anybody but a very few would ever be attracted to Tibetan Buddhism which is can seem so esoteric and complicated and in some ways erotic and alien. It’s the most alien form of Buddhadharma. Also, that those 'middle generation' of lamas who were educated, at least initially, in Tibet, with very formal education and very structured and rigid training - that these lamas should turn out to be the most innovative and accessible of all the Dharma teachers. Who would have guessed?

Q. Who are you thinking of in particular?
A. Well, obviously, the first lama one thinks of is Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who led the way, but also there are so many, I mean Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Sogyal Rinpoche, and so forth. So many lamas who have taken the Dharma and run with it and have a brilliant ability to relate it to the people that they are speaking to, in a way that can really transform. Where sometimes the traditional methods just don’t work. And what is interesting is that these same lamas, when they are talking to Tibetans, go back to being very traditional and formal again. So many young Tibetans prefer to go to listen to the lamas when they are talking to Westerners, rather than when they are speaking specifically to Tibetans.

Q. Right. One of the things that is central to Tibetan Buddhist practice is the relationship between teachers and students. How do you think this is playing out in the West? Are we doing this well or what are the problems there?
A. Well, of course, some people have say a geshe or some lama who is not very prominent, not well known, and who tends to stay put. And provided that they really relate with him well, they are very fortunate because they can build up a relationship. Basically their teacher is there, their teacher knows them, they know their teacher, and it works very well. The problem for many people is that even if they have a teacher who they feel devotion towards and some connection with, so often that teacher – if he is prominent – it’s usually a he, of course – is always globe trotting. I mean, it’s very difficult. You see a lama one week – and you think wonderful, wonderful. You go for refuge – and then he’s off. Also many lamas go to different centres, they give empowerments, and then that’s it. And what do you do with that empowerment? There’s nobody there to really teach you how to practice it and how to develop that practice. So many people feel very confused and stranded because they don’t feel they have the personal relationship with the teacher that they would like to have, and they don’t have the personal guidance which they feel they need, because – whatever one says – this is a very alien form. To do the practices, you have to receive instructions and learn how to do them properly. You cannot get all of that out of just reading books.

Q. What do you think is the way of managing this shortage of teachers or absent teachers?
A. It’s hard to say. There is no quick and easy answer to that. Of course, when some lama is giving general teachings, to attend those general teachings could be very helpful and inspirational. The problem there is that, as the saying goes, every region its own dialect, every lama his own doctrine. That therefore could add confusion. I don’t know. Because I have to deal so often with people who come to me and who are feeling very, very confused and really not knowing what to do or how to do it. Frankly it’s a problem. It’s not something which has an easy solution to it. If people are attracted to a certain lama, they will want to follow his particular path and his particular practices, but if they are not instructed sufficiently in how to do that then they are going to feel very confused and frustrated.

In addition, of course, many lamas do realise it’s a problem and so they organise a general program you would have to follow in any organisation. First you do this and this, and then you do that and that. There are then people who instruct the followers in what they have to do. And that’s fine if that’s your way. But if those particular deities or that particular practice doesn’t resonate with you, then what do you do? Traditionally you would have a teacher who knew you. Who knew you better than you knew yourself and therefore he could say, ‘For you do this. For her, do that’. For example, with Khamtrul Rinpoche, there were we three Dharma sisters – myself, Ani Jinba and Ani Lodroe. So of course we all did the ngöndro practices and some Dorje Phagmo practices. One time I wasn’t sure what to do. I wanted to do something in Kriya yoga and maybe learn how to do some ritual. One of my teachers suggested Guru Rinpoche but I didn’t particularly want to do Guru Rinpoche, but then I thought maybe Tara. I’ll do Tara. So I went to Khamtrul Rinpoche and I said, ‘Well, I’m thinking maybe I’ll do Drolma’. And he said, ‘You want to do Drolma?’ I replied, ‘Well, no, not really.’ So he said, ‘Why don’t you do Mitrukpa – Akshobhya’. And I said, ‘Oh, there’s an Akshobhya practice?’ ‘Yes, yes, you should do that.’ I was so happy, I love Akshobhya. So I ran back and I told Ani Lodro and Ani Jinba, ‘Oh, Rinpoche said I can do Akshobhya!’ And they went, ‘Uggh – I hope he doesn’t tell us to do that.’ So I said, ‘If that’s your reaction he’ll never tell you to do it.’ And of course he never did. Each one of us very shortly were doing completely different practices. We were all doing the practices which were right for us. That is what is lacking in an organisation. You never get that kind of care, so that you are doing the practices which are meaningful for yourself. You are just doing the organisation’s general program. And so this is the problem.

Q. I think there would have to be a lot more teachers.
A. And to find a teacher who is qualified to know what is the right teaching for you is not something that you can just turn out on an assembly line.

Q. Not at all. And tell me about the teachings you received from His Holiness Sakya Trizin. You said that he has also been one of your significant teachers.
A. Well, when I first got ordained in 1964, there was another American nun called Jane Werner and her root guru was Sakya Trizin. So when the Young Lama’s Home School where we were teaching, closed, we set off and we went to visit Sakya Trizin. In those days, of course, you could just go and stay with a lama. Those were the days! When I went in to see him, then he said to me, ‘Well, your yidam is so and so, and tomorrow is her day so I will give you the initiation – the empowerment.’ I had no idea who he was talking about. But he gave the empowerment and then we stayed with him for a month and so he gave all the teachings and so forth. And I kept up this practice forever. So when I had a holiday from working with as secretary to Khamtrul Rinpoche I would go back and stay with Sakya Trizin and his family. The first time I took bodhisattva vows was from Sakya Trizin – an elaborate ceremony just for us and the members of his family. These days His Holiness' sister is called Jetsun Kushola, but in those days we called her Chimey la.

Then in 1980, at the time I was living in a cave, I received a letter from Sakya Trizin saying that he was going to be giving the Inner Lam Dre for the first time in India, so I should come for that. So I met him in Delhi and later went to Puruwala. It was wonderful – it was about three months of Lam Dre. A wonderful experience. So again we made a very strong connection. So I have always felt this very strong connection with the Sakyapas. I especially love Sakya Pandita, of all people. I really love Sakya Pandita and I used to do Sakya Pandita sadhana. And one time I said to Khamtrul Rinpoche, was it all right if I was doing that practice. Rinpoche said, ‘In Tibet, in my room, I had only one thangka on the wall, and that was a thangka of Sakya Pandita.’

Q. Wonderful. So do you find in your nunnery, do you have a kind of a ris-med point of view? It’s a Drukpa Kagyu nunnery, but you have a Sakyapa Khenpo teaching –
A. And a Nyingma nun – a senior nun - who comes from Penor Rinpoche’s nunnery –

Q. Right, every year –
A. So, yeah, we’re sort of ris-med.

Q. But Drukpa Kagyu in terms of the tantric lineage and perhaps the other ones are assisting with the discipline and the sutra study or how do you sort it out?
A. Khenpo Tsering, who is from Dzongsar Institute, as I said, he is also very open. When I go to see him he is usually sitting with a text and surrounded by the commentaries Tsong Khapa, Sakya Pandita, Kunkhyen Pema Karpo, Rangjung Dorje, Longchen Rabjam and so forth. So he himself has a very interesting broad view. So presumably the nuns are imbibing something of that. But he is teaching the sutras. The initiations and practices which the nuns do are Drukpa Kagyu.

Q. Is there anything you would like to add?
A. I think that in the West although there are undoubtedly many problems in practising the Dharma, nonetheless there are also great advantages. First of all, we are all educated, so we can read anything we want. Most people don’t understand what it means not to be able to read and yet long to be able to know what is inside a book. To have the whole dharma closed to them, because they cannot read the books. Sometimes they can read them, but they can’t understand the words. So we have that education. When the lamas come, we understand what they are talking about, usually.

The other great advantage, hopefully, is that having been brought up in a fair amount of affluence, and seeing that affluence around us – and how it does not satisfy true inner needs – we are in a position to let that go and devote our lives to our Dharma practice on whatever level we find ourselves capable of. Which is such a great advantage. The young Tibetans nowadays – as with all others – because they have had nothing are still deeply attracted to the idea of affluence and material prosperity. The dream of so many young Tibetan males, quite frankly, is to find a Western girlfriend, hopefully American, and go to the West. And however much you may say, ‘No that won’t bring you happiness’, they can’t believe it. It’s still shining there as their dream. Hopefully, we have already seen through that, and so we can really appreciate what the Dharma is saying. After all, the Buddha was a prince. So he knew about all the sensual pleasures and was therefore able to let them go. Knowing that material pleasures didn’t give the satisfaction he wanted, allowed him to devote his life in a totally different direction. If we have any sense at all we can see that all this stuff is just illusion, just as the Buddha said. Really, we are in a position to know that because we have had it. If you have never had it then it is always glittering there. And that is an incredible advantage nowadays, to be in the West.

Q. So, you’re optimistic about the development of the Dharma in the West?
A. I think that there are many very true and sincere practitioners who are quite sensible. The problem is finding the time to really absorb oneself completely in the Dharma. Because the current of the society is going in one direction, it’s very difficult to swim upstream in the other direction. You are likely to get crushed by the vast shoal of fish going the other way. Therefore of course, a sangha - meaning here a community of like-minded people - is very important. One understands how Dharma communities come into being to support each other. And if they stay pure and keep away from Dharma politics and stay sincere in their hearts, then yes, I have great hope for the future.

After all, when the Tibetans tried to take the Dharma from India, the Indians didn’t want to give it to them because they thought the Tibetans were a load of barbarians. It was only when the Muslim invasions came and they saw that the Dharma was being destroyed that they were willing to transmit it to the Tibetans. Better something than nothing. Ironically this is very much the position we are in now. The Tibetans certainly thought we were a bunch of bums when we first came, but now they see what’s happening in Tibet so okay, let’s see what these barbarians can do with it. Give them the ball and let’s see if they can run with it.

Q. Well, we better pick up that ball. Thank you.

(See: Sakyadhita)